Bob

I like your list. But I am intersted why JW make it and Mormon’s escaped. I don’t know what the #’s are but I would think worldwide there are more mormons then JW. just curious.

Good question.

Only because JWs have published their own in-house translation and tried to pass it off as a legitimate translation. The Mormons on the other hand have not “retranslated” the Scriptures (only tried to add to it - i.e., Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines & Covenants, etc.). They generally recognize the KJV as a legitimate translation.

Most Christians would have no problem recognizing Mormon additions as something-other-than-Scripture. But a lot of Christians, if handed a NWT, would think it a Bible like any other recognized translation.

No question that I also think Mormons are more dangerous than JWs. But in this list, I’m trying to identify what I call theological scams (A confidence trick, confidence game, or con for short (also known as a scam) is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons [known as the mark] usually with the goal of financial or other gain) - not just heresies and abberations. Both JW and Mormonism are clearly heresy; but the JWs are scamming by publishing the NWT and trying to pass it off as just another valid translation.

It’s a tough call. But you’ve given me an idea for another top 10 list - Top 10 Heresies. I’ll have to work on that.

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Not sure the Mormons would go into a Christian bookstore to buy at KJV. They have added verses to it to fit their theology. The ones I have seen have both the “kjv” and the book of mormon in one volume.

Mormons do not change the KJV. They do have other writings they also consider inspired Scripture. But they use the same KJV that we do. That’s world’s apart from changing the Scripture which the NWT does.

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

I was reading the history of the New World Translation on the internet today. I was surprised to find that the NWT translation committee (whoever they were since they were anonymous) used Westcott and Hort’s Greek New Testament almost exclusively as well as consult with Nestle-Aland’s Greek text.

What is interesting to me is that most modern translations use the same Greek New Testament and manuscripts for there translation. I would be curious to see a side by side comparison of the NWT and other translations that use the same source.

Eric M.
http://blog.jesuspunx.com

Eric M. (ericgmorgan.com)

Hi Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to post. When I have more time, I’ll respond.

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Chris: I admit I am ignorant of much of Mormonism and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I appreciate your post. Our Journey Group has spent the last several months studying Galatians in detail, where Paul refutes (to put it politely) legalism as a means to salvation (i.e., Paul clearly states that following the law does nothing for salvation, rather God’s grace is sufficient). With that fresh on my mind, one point in particular caught my eye, so I would appreciate more insight into point 3 where Joseph Smith states “all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

Thanks for the conversation,
Rich

Hello Everyone,

Some of you may be wondering why a Mormon joined this church’s website. First of all, I created an account on this website to respond to this particular post. My intent is simply to be informative if possible. I respect the individual and collective beliefs of others.

It is important for me to understand what your organization believes in order for me to better relate to comments provided here by it’s members. I have skimmed over the “What do we believe?” section of this site. I plan on reading it more thoroughly when I have time.

I located this thread by searching “+huntsville +mormon +theological” on www.google.com. I believe it was the first search result listed. I thought I could provide some insight into the KJV that is used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I will use the term Latter-day Saint and Mormon interchangeably.

It is true that the KJV used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon) is identical to a KJV Bible you would find in most Christian bookstores when compared verse by verse. The differences you will find are in the footnotes, topical guide, Bible dictionary, maps, and other materials provided at the back of the book.

Judy Webb had said that she was not sure if Mormons would go into a Christian bookstore to buy a KJV Bible. First, I think it is very important to state that every Latter-day Saint believes that they are a Christian regardless of the fact that most other Christian orthodox/evangelical denominations do not consider them to be such.

What are some reasons why a Mormon may not purchase a KJV from a Christian bookstore? I can think of two reasons. The KJV found in many bookstores does not contain footnotes that reference The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & Covenants, etc. In addition, Latter-day Saints are able to purchase a high quality set of scriptures through our church’s distribution center for a fraction of the cost that most Christian bookstores sell them for. I believe we get items “at cost” from the church’s distribution center. I may be wrong about the “at cost” thing though. I know that there may be exceptions to pricing. You may be able to find a high quality set of scriptures cheaper at a Christian bookstore. For example, we can purchase a genuine leather large print Bible with thumb-indexes for only $44.50.

The footnotes in the KJV used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also includes references to The Joseph Smith Translation of The Bible. The verses in the Old Testament and New Testament sections are identical to those found in the KJV found in a Christian bookstore. The Joseph Smith Translation of The Bible is a separate section at the back of the KJV Bible used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The footnotes in the Old and New Testament simply reference The Joseph Smith Translation of The Bible in order to allow for comparison. The following are excerpts taken from www.lds.org regarding The Joseph Smith Translation of The Bible.

“The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore truths to the Bible text that had become lost or changed since the original words were written. These restored truths clarified doctrine and improved scriptural understanding. The passages selected for the Guide should help improve your understanding of the scriptures regardless of the language into which they are translated.”

“Because the Lord revealed to Joseph certain truths that the original authors had once recorded, the Joseph Smith Translation is unlike any other Bible translation in the world. In this sense, the word translation is used in a broader and different way than usual, for Joseph’s translation was more revelation than literal translation from one language into another.”

The following are excerpts taken from our Guide to The Scriptures in regards to The Joseph Smith Translation.

“A revision or translation of the King James Version of the Bible in English, which the Prophet Joseph Smith began in June 1830. He was commanded by God to make the translation and regarded it as part of his calling as a prophet.”

“Although Joseph completed most of the translation by July 1833, he continued until his death in 1844 to make modifications while preparing a manuscript for publication. Though he published some parts of the translation during his lifetime, it is possible that he would have made additional changes had he lived to publish the entire work. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints published the first edition of Joseph Smith’s inspired translation in 1867. They have published several editions since that time.”

“The Prophet learned many things during the translation process. Several sections of the Doctrine and Covenants were received because of his translation work (such as D&C 76, 77, 91, and 132). Also, the Lord gave Joseph specific instructions for the translation, which were recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 37: 1; 45: 60-61; 76: 15-18; 90: 13; 91; 94: 10; 104: 58; 124: 89). The book of Moses and Joseph Smith—Matthew, now included in the Pearl of Great Price, were taken directly from the Joseph Smith Translation.”

“The Joseph Smith Translation has restored some of the plain and precious things that have been lost from the Bible (1 Ne. 13). Although it is not the official Bible of the Church, this translation does offer many interesting insights and is very valuable in understanding the Bible. It is also a witness for the divine calling and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

The Joseph Smith Translations of The Bible can be found at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/contents . I thought some of you may be interested in exactly what was translated/changed. I know that many others have concerns that modifications were made in order to accommodate our doctrine. I believe it is important for every individual to investigate that that for themselves.

President Gordon B. Hinckley, the man whom I believe is the Lord’s divinely appointed prophet for our time, has written the following in regards to Joseph Smith Jr.

“We do not worship the Prophet. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood through which the authority of God is exercised in the affairs of His Church and for the blessing of His people.” (“Joseph Smith Jr.—Prophet of God, Mighty Servant,” Ensign, December 2005.)

We think of and revere Joseph Smith as we would other prophets found in the scripture such as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and so on.

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said the following.

“Joseph Smith is not divine. We do not worship him. I hope no one out there misunderstands our view of Joseph Smith. He is a man, a mortal, as temporal as any of the rest of us. But his witness, his testimony was of that God and of that Son [Jesus] – of those spiritual truths, of redemption, of hope, of happiness, of future, of peace, of renewal, of sanctification”

Last, but not least, I believe it is important to state The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

- Joseph Smith

I hope this has provided some insight to questions you may have had regarding previous comments in this post.

Have a great weekend!

Sincerely,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hello Stormcliff,

For some reason the forums moved my original post to the bottom of the thread when I modified it to fix the quote I had for Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. I had accidentally put the same quote for Elder Jeffrey R. Holland as I had for President Gordon B. Hinckley.

I appreciate the opportunity to answer your questions. I think it is always best to find out what a Catholic person believes from a Catholic, what a Baptist person believes from a Baptist, what a Mormon believes from a Mormon, and so on. I’ve met a lot of people who have misperceptions as to what others believe. If I want to know what Jehovah Witnesses believe, I feel that the best source is an “active” Jehovah Witness. The “active” part is very important.

I prefer to reference sources in order to not misrepresent church doctrine. Sometimes simply stating something in a certain way can change it’s meaning.

In order to best answer your question, I will quote the definition used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for related terms. These terms are from our “Guide to The Scriptures”. You will find references to various verses contained in the KJV Old Testament, KJV New Testament, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and The Doctrine & Covenants. Since you may not have many of these available, they may be viewed online at http://scriptures.lds.org with no registration required of any kind.

This will be a very long post. Though I believe it is necessary in order to sufficiently answer your question.

–

Gospel

God’s plan of salvation, made possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The gospel includes the eternal truths or laws, covenants, and ordinances needed for mankind to enter back into the presence of God. God restored the fulness of the gospel to the earth in the nineteenth century through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

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Obedience

In a spiritual sense, obedience is doing God’s will.

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Law

The commandments or rules of God upon which all blessings and punishments are based both in heaven and on earth. Those who obey the laws of God receive the promised blessings. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that people should also obey, honor, and sustain the laws of the land (A of F 1: 12).

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Ordinances

Sacred rites and ceremonies. Ordinances consist of acts that have spiritual meanings. Ordinances can also mean God’s laws and statutes.

Ordinances in the Church include administration to the sick (James 5: 14-15), blessing the sacrament (D&C 20: 77, 79), baptism by immersion (Matt. 3: 16; D&C 20: 72-74), blessing of children (D&C 20: 70), conferring the Holy Ghost (D&C 20: 68; 33: 15), conferring the priesthood (D&C 84: 6-16; 107: 41-52), temple ordinances (D&C 124: 39), and marriage in the new and everlasting covenant (D&C 132: 19-20).

Related verses:
Teach them ordinances and laws, Ex. 18: 20. Walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, Ezek. 11: 20. The people were strict in observing the ordinances of God, Alma 30: 3. What doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances? 3 Ne. 24: 13-14. He that prayeth and is contrite is accepted of me if he obeys mine ordinances, D&C 52: 14-19. All mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, A of F 1: 3.

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Covenant

An agreement between God and man, but they do not act as equals in the agreement. God gives the conditions for the covenant, and men agree to do what he asks them to do. God then promises men certain blessings for their obedience.

Principles and ordinances are received by covenant. Members of the Church who make such covenants promise to honor them. For example, members covenant with the Lord at baptism and renew those covenants by partaking of the sacrament. They make further covenants in the temple. The Lord’s people are a covenant people and are greatly blessed as they keep their covenants with the Lord.

Related verses:
With thee will I establish my covenant, Gen. 6: 18. Keep my covenant; then ye shall be a peculiar treasure, Ex. 19: 5. Make no covenant with them nor their gods, Ex. 23: 32. Keep the sabbath for a perpetual covenant, Ex. 31: 16. I will never break my covenant with you, Judg. 2: 1. My Saints have made a covenant with me by sacrifice, Ps. 50: 5 (D&C 97: 8). Remember his holy covenant, Luke 1: 72 (D&C 90: 24). The power of God descended upon the covenant people of the Lord, 1 Ne. 14: 14. The covenant made to Abraham will be fulfilled in latter days, 1 Ne. 15: 18 (3 Ne. 16: 5, 11-12; 21: 7; Morm. 9: 37). Benjamin’s people were willing to enter into a covenant with God to do his will, Mosiah 5: 5. Baptism is a testimony that man has entered into a covenant with God to do his will, Mosiah 18: 13. Ye are children of the covenant, 3 Ne. 20: 25-26. Angels fulfill and do the work of the covenants of the Father, Moro. 7: 31. The shedding of the blood of Christ is the covenant, Moro. 10: 33. Every person who belongs to this Church of Christ shall observe to keep all the covenants, D&C 42: 78. Blessed are they who have kept the covenant, D&C 54: 6. He who breaks this covenant shall lose his office and standing in the Church, D&C 78: 11-12. All those who receive the priesthood receive this oath and covenant, D&C 84: 39-40. They are willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice, D&C 97: 8. The marriage covenant can be eternal, D&C 132. This shall be our covenant, that we will walk in all the ordinances, D&C 136: 4.

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Grace

The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam’s fall and also because of man’s weaknesses.

Related verses:
Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ, John 1: 17. Through the grace of Christ, we shall be saved, Acts 15: 11 (Rom. 3: 23-24; D&C 138: 14). We have access by faith to his grace, Rom. 5: 2. By grace ye are saved through faith, Eph. 2: 8. The grace of God brings salvation, Titus 2: 11. Come boldly unto the throne of grace, Heb. 4: 16. God gives grace to the humble, 1 Pet. 5: 5. No one can dwell in the presence of God but through the merits, mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, 2 Ne. 2: 8. It is only in and through the grace of God that men are saved, 2 Ne. 10: 24. We are saved by grace, after all we can do, 2 Ne. 25: 23. It is by grace that we have power to do these things, Jacob 4: 7. Men might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works, Hel. 12: 24. My grace is sufficient for the meek and all that humble themselves, Ether 12: 26-27. Moroni prayed that the Gentiles be given grace that they might have charity, Ether 12: 36, 41. By the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, Moro. 10: 32-33. Jesus received grace for grace, D&C 93: 12-13, 20.

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Death, Physical

The separation of the body and the spirit. The Fall brought mortality and death to the earth (2 Ne. 2: 22; Moses 6: 48). The atonement of Jesus Christ conquered death so that everyone will be resurrected (1 Cor. 15: 21-23). Resurrection is a free gift to all people regardless of whether they have done good or evil in this life (Alma 11: 42-44). Each person suffers only one physical death since once we are resurrected, our bodies can die no more (Alma 11: 45).

Related verses:
All flesh shall perish, and man shall turn again unto dust, Job 34: 15. Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his Saints, Ps. 116: 15. The dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God, Eccl. 12: 7. By man came death, 1 Cor. 15: 21. The Savior holds the keys of hell and of death, Rev. 1: 18. There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, Rev. 21: 4. Death hath passed upon all men, 2 Ne. 9: 6, 11 (Alma 12: 24). They never did look upon death with terror, Alma 27: 28. Alma explained the state of the soul between death and the resurrection, Alma 40: 11. Those who die in me shall not taste of death, D&C 42: 46. Those who are not appointed unto death shall be healed, D&C 42: 48. I will prove you in all things even unto death, D&C 98: 14. Unto dust shalt thou return, Moses 4: 25. Adam fell, and by his fall came death, Moses 6: 48.

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Death, Spiritual

Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29: 36-37).

Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the fall of Adam (Moses 6: 48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5: 6). Through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12: 16; Hel. 14: 16-19; D&C 76: 36-38).

Related verses:
Evildoers shall be cut off, Ps. 37: 9. To be carnally minded is death, Rom. 8: 6 (2 Ne. 9: 39). Lusts drown men in destruction and perdition, 1 Tim. 6: 9. Sin brings forth death, James 1: 15. He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death, Rev. 2: 11. On such the second death has no power, Rev. 20: 6, 12-14. The wicked shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death, Rev. 21: 8 (D&C 63: 17-18). Men are free to choose liberty and eternal life or to choose captivity and death, 2 Ne. 2: 27 (2 Ne. 10: 23; Alma 29: 5; Hel. 14: 30-31). God has prepared a way for our escape from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9: 10. Loose yourselves from the pains of hell that you may not suffer the second death, Jacob 3: 11. The natural man is an enemy to God, Mosiah 3: 19. May the Lord grant unto you repentance so that you may not suffer the second death, Alma 13: 30. Alma was encircled about by the everlasting chains of death, Alma 36: 18. The wicked die as to things pertaining to righteousness, Alma 40: 26 (Alma 12: 16). The Fall brought upon all mankind a spiritual death, Alma 42: 9 (Hel. 14: 16-18). When Adam fell, he became spiritually dead, D&C 29: 40-41, 44.

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Redemption

To deliver, to purchase, or to ransom, such as to free a person from bondage by payment. Redemption refers to the atonement of Jesus Christ and to deliverance from sin. Jesus’ atonement redeems all mankind from physical death. Through his atonement, those who have faith in him and who repent are also redeemed from spiritual death.

Related verses:
I have redeemed thee, Isa. 44: 22. I will redeem them from death, Hosea 13: 14 (Ps. 49: 15). We have redemption through the blood of Christ, Eph. 1: 7, 14 (Heb. 9: 11-15; 1 Pet. 1: 18-19; Alma 5: 21; Hel. 5: 9-12). The Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 1: 15. Redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah, 2 Ne. 2: 6-7, 26 (Mosiah 15: 26-27; 26: 26). They did sing redeeming love, Alma 5: 9 (Alma 5: 26; 26: 13). The wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, Alma 11: 40-41 (Alma 34: 16; Alma 42: 13; Hel. 14: 16-18). Jesus Christ hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Morm. 7: 5-7. The power of redemption comes on all who have no law, Moro. 8: 22 (D&C 45: 54). They that believe not cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, D&C 29: 44. Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world, D&C 29: 46. The Lord hath redeemed his people, D&C 84: 99. Joseph F. Smith saw in vision the redemption of the dead, D&C 138. Adam and Eve rejoiced in their redemption, Moses 5: 9-11.

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Plan of Redemption

The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, designed to bring about man’s immortality and eternal life. It includes the Creation, Fall, and Atonement, along with all God-given laws, ordinances, and doctrines. This plan makes it possible for all people to be exalted and live forever with God (2 Ne. 2; 9). The scriptures also refer to this plan as the plan of salvation, the plan of happiness, and the plan of mercy.

Related verses:
He was wounded for our transgressions, Isa. 53: 5 (Mosiah 14: 5). There is none other name under heaven by which man can be saved, Acts 4: 12. As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, 1 Cor. 15: 22. By grace are ye saved through faith, Eph. 2: 8 (2 Ne. 25: 23). God promised eternal life before the world began, Titus 1: 2. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation, Heb. 5: 8-9. The plan of redemption was extended to the dead, 1 Pet. 3: 18-20; 4: 6 (D&C 138). Death fulfills the merciful plan of the great Creator, 2 Ne. 9: 6. How great is the plan of our God! 2 Ne. 9: 13. The plan of redemption brings to pass the resurrection and a remission of sins, Alma 12: 25-34. Aaron taught the plan of redemption to Lamoni’s father, Alma 22: 12-14. Amulek explained the plan of salvation, Alma 34: 8-16. Alma explained the plan of salvation, Alma 42: 5-26, 31. The doctrines of the creation, fall, atonement, and baptism are affirmed in modern revelation, D&C 20: 17-29. The plan was ordained before the world, D&C 128: 22. My work and my glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, Moses 1: 39. This is the plan of salvation unto all men, Moses 6: 52-62. We will prove them herewith, Abr. 3: 22-26.

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Salvation

To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

Related verses:
The Lord is my light and my salvation, Ps. 27: 1. He only is my rock and my salvation, Ps. 62: 2. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, Rom. 1: 16 (D&C 68: 4). Work out your own salvation with fear, Philip. 2: 12. God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification, 2 Thes. 2: 13. Salvation is free, 2 Ne. 2: 4. There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation, D&C 6: 13. Jesus Christ is the only name whereby salvation shall come, Moses 6: 52 (Acts 4: 10-12). We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, A of F 1: 3.

Salvation of children: Except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 18: 3. Little children also have eternal life, Mosiah 15: 25. Infant baptism is an abomination, and little children are alive in Christ because of the Atonement, Moro. 8: 8-24. Little children are redeemed through the Only Begotten; Satan cannot tempt them, D&C 29: 46-47. Children are to be taught the gospel and baptized when eight years old, D&C 68: 25-28. Little children are sanctified through Jesus Christ, D&C 74: 7. Men become again, in their infant state, innocent, D&C 93: 38. All children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom, D&C 137: 10. Children are whole from the foundation of the world, Moses 6: 54.

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Atonement

To reconcile man to God.

As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for an act of sin, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of making a perfect atonement for all mankind. He was able to do so because of his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed (Ether 3: 14; Moses 4: 1-2; Abr. 3: 27), his divine Sonship, and his sinless life. His atonement included his suffering for the sins of mankind in the Garden of Gethsemane, the shedding of his blood, and his death and subsequent resurrection from the grave (Isa. 53: 3-12; Mosiah 3: 5-11; Alma 7: 10-13). Because of the Atonement, all people will rise from the dead with immortal bodies (1 Cor. 15: 22). The Atonement also provides the way for us to be forgiven of our sins and live forever with God. But a person who has reached the age of accountability and received the law can receive these blessings only if he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, receives the ordinances of salvation, and obeys the commandments of God. Those who do not reach the age of accountability and those without the law are redeemed through the Atonement (Mosiah 15: 24-25; Moro. 8: 22). The scriptures clearly teach that if Christ had not atoned for our sins, no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would satisfy the demands of justice, and man could never regain God’s presence (2 Ne. 2; 9).

Related verses:
This is my blood, shed for many for the remission of sins, Matt. 26: 28. His sweat was as it were great drops of blood, Luke 22: 39-44. I will give my flesh for the life of the world, John 6: 51. I am the resurrection, and the life, John 11: 25. Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey, Heb. 5: 9. We are sanctified by the shedding of the blood of Christ, Heb. 9; 10: 1-10. Christ also hath once suffered for sins, 1 Pet. 3: 18. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, 1 Jn. 1: 7. He was lifted up upon the cross and slain for sins, 1 Ne. 11: 32-33.

Redemption comes to those who have a broken heart and contrite spirit, 2 Ne. 2: 3-10, 25-27. He offered himself a sacrifice for sin, 2 Ne. 2: 7. The Atonement ransoms men from the Fall and saves them from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9: 5-24. It must needs be an infinite atonement, 2 Ne. 9: 7. Be reconciled unto God through the Atonement of Christ, Jacob 4: 11. His blood atones for the sins of those who have ignorantly sinned, Mosiah 3: 11-18. Man received salvation through the atonement, Mosiah 4: 6-8. Were it not for the Atonement, they must unavoidably perish, Mosiah 13: 27-32. He shall atone for the sins of the world, Alma 34: 8-16. God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, Alma 42: 11-30. I am the God of the whole earth, slain for the sins of the world, 3 Ne. 11: 14. I, God, have suffered these things for all, D&C 19: 16. Little children are redeemed through mine Only Begotten, D&C 29: 46-47. Behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, D&C 45: 3-5. This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten, Moses 5: 7. Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, A of F 1: 3.

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hello awulff,

I am not sure how many Jehovah Witnesses there are either. Though I do have some numbers regarding membership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have provided a recent quote below.

“Third, there are now over 13 million members in 176 countries and territories. About 6 million of these are in the United States, making us the fourth largest Christian denomination in America. As one of the fastest growing Christian faiths in the world, we complete a new chapel every working day. Members pay a tithe, which is 10 percent of their income, making this and other programs possible.” - M. Russell Ballard, “Faith, Family, Facts, and Fruits,” Liahona, Nov 2007, 25–27

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Of the 6 million members in the United States, how many are active in the Mormon church? Activity rates for Mormons in the US are estimated at between 40 and 50 percent. Overseas rates are substantially lower. People who resign from the Mormon church are still counted as members by the church until they reach the age of 110. People are leaving the Mormon church faster than they are joining.

Hello Charles,

I’ve wondered the same thing about the number of active members. Unfortunately, I do not have that information available. I do know that we have been actively concentrating our efforts to improve the retention rate.

We would not be building as many chapels and temples as we have been if there were more members leaving than were joining. These new buildings are constructed to accommodate our rapid growth. As stated above, we complete a new chapel every working day.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hello Stormcliff,

There was one other definition I meant to include in my original post to you. I will list it below. I have provided our definition of these words in order to help eliminate any communication barriers. I believe our understanding of these words may differ.

If this does not provide clarification in regards to our 3rd Articles of Faith, I can reference many talks which have been given on the subject.

–

Faith

Confidence in something or someone. As most often used in the scriptures, faith is confidence and trust in Jesus Christ that lead a person to obey him. Faith must be centered in Jesus Christ in order for it to lead a person to salvation. Latter-day Saints also have faith in God the Father, the Holy Ghost, priesthood power, and other important aspects of the restored gospel.

Faith includes a hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11: 1; Alma 32: 21; Ether 12: 6). Faith is kindled by hearing the gospel taught by authorized administrators sent by God (Rom. 10: 14-17). Miracles do not produce faith, but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, faith comes by righteousness (Alma 32: 40-43; Ether 12: 4, 6, 12; D&C 63: 9-12).

True faith brings miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that he gives to his Saints. By faith one obtains a remission of sins and eventually is able to dwell in God’s presence. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity (Moro. 10: 22).

Related verses:
The just shall live by faith, Hab. 2: 4. Thy faith hath made thee whole, Matt. 9: 22 (Mark 5: 34; Luke 7: 50). According to your faith be it unto you, Matt. 9: 29. If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, nothing shall be impossible unto you, Matt. 17: 20 (Luke 17: 6). I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not, Luke 22: 32. Faith in Christ’s name hath made this man strong, Acts 3: 16. Faith cometh by hearing the word of God, Rom. 10: 17. If Christ is not risen your faith is also vain, 1 Cor. 15: 14. Faith worketh by love, Gal. 5: 6. By grace are ye saved through faith, Eph. 2: 8 (2 Ne. 25: 23). Take the shield of faith, Eph. 6: 16 (D&C 27: 17). I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, 2 Tim. 4: 7. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, Heb. 11: 1. Without faith it is impossible to please him, Heb. 11: 6. Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, James 2: 17-18, 22. I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, 1 Ne. 3: 7. The Lord is able to do all things for the children of men, if they exercise faith in him, 1 Ne. 7: 12. The pointers in the Liahona worked according to faith, 1 Ne. 16: 28. Repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One, 2 Ne. 9: 23. Christ works mighty miracles among the children of men according to their faith, 2 Ne. 26: 13 (Ether 12: 12; Moro. 7: 27-29, 34-38). Enos’s sins were forgiven because of his faith in Christ, Enos 1: 3-8. Salvation cometh to none such except it be through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, Mosiah 3: 12. Hearts are changed through faith on his name, Mosiah 5: 7. The prayers of God’s servants are answered according to their faith, Mosiah 27: 14. Give us strength according to our faith in Christ, Alma 14: 26. Call on God’s name in faith, Alma 22: 16. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things, Alma 32: 21 (Ether 12: 6). As it beginneth to swell even so nourish it by your faith, Alma 33: 23 (Alma 32: 28). Their preservation was ascribed to the miraculous power of God because of their exceeding faith, Alma 57: 25-27. As many as should look upon the Son of God with faith might live, Hel. 8: 15. I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you, 3 Ne. 17: 8. Faith is things which are hoped for and not seen, Ether 12: 6. All they who wrought miracles wrought them by faith, Ether 12: 12-18. If they have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them, Ether 12: 27-28, 37. Mormon taught about faith, hope, and charity, Moro. 7. Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you, Moro. 7: 26. They who have faith in Christ will cleave unto every good thing, Moro. 7: 28. If ye shall ask, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth, Moro. 10: 4. Without faith ye can do nothing; therefore ask in faith, D&C 8: 10. It should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers, D&C 10: 47, 52. All men must endure in faith on his name to the end, D&C 20: 25, 29. Justification through the grace of Christ is just and true, D&C 20: 30. The Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith, D&C 42: 14. Faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe, D&C 63: 9-12. Parents are to teach children faith in Christ, D&C 68: 25. Seek learning, even by study and also by faith, D&C 88: 118. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel, A of F 1: 4.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: That’s alot of words. I say that because I’m not much of a reader (and perhaps also I have a bit of a sarcastic sense of humor). At times, my lack of being a reader may be a weakness. However, at other times it can be a strength. In this case, I see it as a strength because, to be completely honest, I don’t read alot about what others say about the Bible, I read the Bible. Like you said, you want to know what a Catholic person believes from a Catholic. Similarly, if I want to know God, there is no better manner to do so than for me to understand the Bible.

With that said, I must admit I didn’t read in detail all of your post. Not because your words are not interesting nor because I don’t care about your words, but because I disagreed with one of your first terms used as a foundation for many other terms. And since I disagreed with that foundation, the remaining words are irrelevant in the context of this conversation.

When I read your definition of Gospel and you stated “The gospel includes the eternal truths or laws, covenants, and ordinances needed for mankind to enter back into the presence of God”, I was reminded of my original post where I referenced Paul’s refuting of legalism in Galatians. I would assert that your definition of the Gospel may be exactly what Paul, in Galatians 1:7, refers to as the perverted gospel of Christ. Referencing only the Bible in Galatians (and not what Bob nor David nor Judy nor Chris nor Rich says), Paul clearly states that the true Gospel declares that no one can be saved by keeping the laws and the only way to salvation is by faith in Christ. That’s what Paul states, and I add that anything I do to achieve salvation minimizes what God the Son (i.e., Jesus Christ) did on the cross. This is the good news, make that the great news, of the Gospel. It’s not about me and what I do, it’s about what God did and what He continues to do. The great news of the Gospel is amazing, it’s free, and it’s the great equalizer for everyone. The old testament covenent is a different story, a story of men and women trying to enter back into the presence of God through laws and ordinances. But I love the story in the new testament, because it states the covenant under which I live.

- Rich -

Why is the Mormon church only touting their membership and building rates and not their retention rates? The growth and retention rate of the Mormon church has significantly decreased from the previous rates in the 1970s and 1980s, most likely as a result of more information about the Mormon church being made available on the Internet. The membership growth rate for the Mormon church in 2006 was 1.63%. The highest growth rates for the Mormon church are in poor non-English speaking countries where few people have access to the Internet.

Mormon wards are being split in half to create the illusion of growth. The ward growth rate is all on paper. The rate of wards being built is higher than the rate of increase in Mormon church membership. In the 1970s four wards would share one building, now there are more buildings with lower utilization rates as a result of the lower retention rates.

Pentecostal Christianity and Presbyterian Christianity are growing much faster than the Mormon church. The “jump on the bandwagon” argument is clearly not a valid argument for the Mormon church.

http://www.mormoninformation.com/stats.htm

Does the LDS Church really have 12 million members? A critical look at the statistics

Hello Stormcliff,

I have listed the verses below which I believe you are referring to.

Galatians Ch. 2

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I completely believe in the truthfulness of these verses. Though we obviously come to a different conclusion as to the meaning of these verses. I will do my best to explain my understanding of these verses. I am not very good with forming my thoughts into words. I apologize in advance if it is not very clear.

My understanding of these verses:

The law alone is not sufficient for our salvation. The Atonement of Jesus Christ allows us the opportunity to have salvation. We have salvation when we exercise true faith in our Savior Jesus Christ. I will try to elaborate on what I mean by this.

If it were not for the atonement of Jesus Christ, nothing I do in this world would ever be good enough to return to the presence of my Heavenly Father. If Jesus Christ had not atoned for my sins, I could never achieve salvation by following any law or based on my own merits. It would not matter if I was the kindest person, gave service to others every day, sacrificed everything I had for someone else, and lived as close to the commandments as possible. There would be absolutely nothing I could do to earn my salvation.

Fortunately, our Savior Jesus Christ has atoned for the sins of the world. In order for me to have salvation, I must exercise true faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is confidence and trust in Jesus Christ that leads a person to obey him. We show our love for God by following His commandments. Faith without obedience to His commandments/laws is dead.

Related verse:
Mosiah 13: 28 (27-31)
And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

I know that we may never agree with particular points of each other’s doctrine. I hope that we can get along and learn from each other. I understand and respect your views. I say that I understand because I once held very similar views to other Christian evangelical denominations. I did not grow up in the LDS Church. I’ve attended a wide range of Christian churches in my lifetime. I’ve enjoyed many of them. I recently attended Hillwood Baptist Church in south Huntsville to see my nephew sing in the children’s choir. I could feel the Spirit in their songs of praise and in the truth they taught. I enjoyed the service and expressed that to my brother’s parent-in-laws who are members there. A lot of good people go to that church, as I am sure there are in many others.

I gained a personal testimony of my Savior Jesus Christ when I was very young. I remember kneeling to pray with my father. My father told me the words to say. He asked me to pray to know if Jesus Christ was my Savior and for Him to come into my heart. I remember that I prayed with real intent because I wanted to know the truth. I cannot deny the overwhelming peace and love that came over me. I’ve known ever since then that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I know that I was converted to Jesus Christ then, regardless of the fact that I was not a member of the LDS Church at that time. I’ve experienced that same peace and love many times throughout my life when truth was shown to me. Jesus Christ is the core of my belief. There is nothing greater in this world. I love Him with all my heart and want to do everything to please Him because I owe Him everything. If it were not for Him, I would be nothing and have nothing.

My intent is not to persuade you to believe what I am writing. I believe the only true teaching comes through The Holy Ghost. I believe that there have been many people truly converted to Jesus Christ from many different Christian denominations. Those who are acting as missionaries (regardless of denomination) are not the ones responsible for the conversion process. The missionaries are responsible for providing that message to the world. The Holy Ghost is responsible for the conversion process by testifying to the listener the truthfulness of the message being given.

I do like sharing my beliefs as much as I enjoy learning about your own. I enjoy what others have to say on these forums. I’m not just saying that either. I’m not the type of person who is afraid to read about someone else’s religion. There is so much good in so many religions. I wish to take in as much good as I can find.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hello Charles,

The statistics page which you linked is very interesting. I have printed it out to read it more thoroughly later this week. I plan on asking the Ward Clerk and/or Bishopric about these statistics. Things such as this do interest me with the intent to become better informed, not necessarily with the intent of searching for fault. I’ll let you know if I come up with anything conclusive.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: No need to apologize in advance if something is not clear. Language is the primary medium we have to communicate with each other (anyone figure out the Vulcan mind meld yet?) but we sometimes lack the proper words or structure to communicate our thoughts accurately. That’s one reason why I am amazed at the consistency of the Bible within itself; I am glad that God revealed himself to us through the Bible, and I am also glad that you and I share the common viewpoint of the Bible as the infallible word of God.

So to boil it down, and correct me if I’m wrong, your interpretation is the Atonement of Jesus Christ makes your good works worthy of returning you to the presence of God? So in mathematical A+B=C terms: then Jesus [A] + Your Good Works [B] = Salvation [C]?

- Rich

Hello Stormcliff,

I would like to add a variable to that mathematical equation in order to provide clarification. A+B+C=D: The Atonement of Jesus Christ [A] + Belief in our Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ [B] + Our good works which are in accordance with Heavenly Father’s will [C] = Salvation [D]. In addition, B+C=E: A belief in our Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ [B] + Our good works which are in accordance with Heavenly Father’s will [C] = Faith made perfect [E].

I have included James 2:14-26 and Matthew 7:21 below.

Verse 18 of James Chapter 2 explains that we show our faith by our works.

Particularly interesting to me is Verse 19. It explains that the devils believe in God. Yet their belief alone was not enough to save them.

Verse 22 is one of my favorites. It says it so simply. By works is faith made perfect.

In regards to Matthew 7:21, my goal in life is to know and follow the will of our Heavenly Father. I cannot think of a greater reward than to one day be worthy to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and hear Him say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.” I know that I fall short of His glory, and have plenty of room for improvement. I pray that I will use all the opportunities in this life to prepare myself and others for the next.

Related verses:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: Great, thanks for clarifying some of this. OK so bear with me a little more as I try to understand even more clearly what you believe.

You state A+B+C=D: The Atonement of Jesus Christ [A] + Belief in our Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ [B] + Our good works which are in accordance with Heavenly Father’s will [C] = Salvation [D].

Looking at just one of your variables, Belief in our Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ [B]. Is [B] just that, a simple belief in the existence of Father and Son, just like the devils believe? (like you cite in James 2:19)? Or is what you refer to something more than a just a belief? If it is something more than just a belief, is your belief something different than the belief of the devils?

I’m not trying to make this complicated, I’m just trying to be specific in my understanding. I’ve got a few more questions to clarify, but I’d like to work through them one at a time.

Thanks - Rich

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

Hello Stormcliff,

I separated out [B] and [C] to give clarification as to what I believe the word faith means. I did this because my belief in what constitutes faith that is capable of obtaining salvation may differ from yours. Otherwise I would have lumped them both together as a single variable called faith.

It is important that we have a belief in Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ in order to know His will. It is not possible for our works to be in accordance with His will if we do not know what His will is for us.

It is more than simply a belief in the existence of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. It is the belief that we have a loving Father in Heaven who sent His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of the world. That is about as simple as I know how to explain it. Of course, that could always be explained in greater detail.

The devils believe all of this, or at least did at one time. They were angels in Heaven before they took sides with Lucifer to rebel against Heavenly Father’s plan. The consequence of their rebellion was to be cast out for all eternity. Their belief in Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, alone was not sufficient to save them because they lacked works which were in accordance with His will.

Regards,
Chris Hozian

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: That’s an interesting interpretation of faith. I have never heard of anyone adding actions (i.e. good works) to a word defined only by a matter of the heart/spirit/soul.

So for your actions part of your faith: Is there some biblical measuring stick/guidelines for them?

- Rich

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

Hello stormcliff,

As most often used in the scriptures, faith is confidence and trust in Jesus Christ that lead a person to obey him. Faith must be centered in Jesus Christ in order for it to lead a person to salvation.

Related verses:

James Chapter 2

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

There are other accounts in latter-day scriptures that clarify this as well.

Related verses:

The Book of Moroni Chapter 7

27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?
28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

In The Book of Moroni Chapter 7, the phrase “and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing;” shows this as well.

Regards,
Chris Hozian

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hello stormcliff,

I believe I just realized what you were really asking in your last question. Though I am on my way out the door now. I will do my best to answer your question as soon as possible.

Regards,
Chris Hozian

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: You state “There are other accounts in latter-day scriptures that clarify this as well.” I have no doubt that your latter-day scriptures clarify and support your position, but I do not accept those as God’s revelation, rather they are composed by man alone. However, as you and I do agree on the traditional Bible as God’s revelation, can we stick to that for references?

- Rich

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

Hello stormcliff,

I will do my best to answer your questions by providing references to the King James Version of the Old Testament and the New Testament. In order to provide you with as accurate of answers as possible, I may include references to latter-day scriptures. I understand your view on our latter-day scriptures. My answers would not be complete if I did not include them when necessary. I may be able to answer many of your questions using the Bible. Though there are some specific doctrinal points that you may question which can only be answered using latter-day scriptures. We believe them to be revelations from God. Our latter-day scriptures build upon the principles taught in the Bible. They do not contradict them. Every scripture that the Lord has revealed to us is priceless and essential. The fullness of the Gospel is not found in any one book of scripture. It is found in the collective words, both written and spoken, by holy men of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. The official canonized scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today consist of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Prayer is not a casual ritual but direct communication with our Heavenly Father that occurs when we humbly approach him with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. Every person may receive personal revelation for his own benefit. The Holy Ghost performs serveral vital roles in the plan of salvation. One of these roles is to reveal the truth of all things. It is imperative that we discern truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.

John Chapter 14

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John Chapter 16

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It will be up to you, and anyone else who reads this blog, to discern the truth of my answers by the power of the Holy Ghost. I do not intend to persuade you by any other means. Nor would it be right for me to do so.

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Moroni 10:4).

I still intend on answering your previous questions as soon as time permits.

Regards,
Chris Hozian

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: As you state “Our latter-day scriptures build upon the principles taught in the Bible. They do not contradict them.” I believe we are starting to see that the latter-day scriptures do indeed contradict the Bible, but we shall see for certain as we continue our conversation.

I don’t state that lightly either. Going back to Galatians where you and I first started our conversation, Paul states the seriousness of the situation. Galatians 1:6-9 in your preferred KJV states “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Paul starts his other letters with quite a few statements of thanksgiving and prayer and praise, yet he chooses in Galatians to speak directly to this “perversion” and states twice, “let him be accursed.” It’s a big deal.

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

Hello stormcliff,

I completely agree with Paul in Galatians 1:6-9. In addition, I understand the seriousness of his statements. It is a very huge deal. There has undoubtedly been a perversion of the gospel. Though the perversion that he is referring to is not the gospel which is embraced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Great Apostasy occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel.

During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances.

Amos Chapter 8

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Isaiah Chapter 29

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Thessalonians Chapter 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Isaiah Chapter 24

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Acts Chapter 20

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Matthew Chapter 24

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Peter Chapter 2

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Ephesians Chapter 1

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

I still plan on providing you with an answer to your question regarding biblical guidelines for actions which demonstrate faith. It was more important for me to first respond to your last message.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Maybe I’m missing a connection, are you saying that in Galatians Paul is writing about what you are calling the Great Apostasy? Otherwise I’m not sure why you wrote several more paragraphs describing it.

- Rich

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

> So for your actions part of your faith: Is there some
> biblical measuring stick/guidelines for them?

I would like to narrow down that question as much as possible because the potential list of answers could be quite large.

1) Were you asking for a list of actions which we must perform in order to be considered faithful?

2) Were you asking how we are to determine whether or not our actions are good enough for God?

I will try to be more consistent with my responses in the future. I’ve become easily sidetracked with a large number of things going on recently.

Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Hi Chris: I believe clarification on a later issue in our conversation (perversion of the Gospel) supersedes discussion on this earlier point, at least for now. So on that topic of perversion of the Gospel, I would very much like to you to clarify what you refer to as the Great Apostasy where you seem to be saying that Paul was predicting the future.

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

I brought up the Great Apostasy because it shows the need that the world had for a restoration of the fullness of the gospel. Paul was not referring to the Bible alone when he spoke of the gospel in those verses. The Bible did not exist then as it does now. He was speaking of the eternal truths, covenants, and ordinances needed for mankind to enter back into the presence of God … the true teachings of Christ. If you believe in the Bible, you will also believe in the Book of Mormon. The teachings in both of those books are in accordance with each other. You can have a better understanding of the Book of Mormon by reading the Bible, and a better understanding of the Bible by reading the Book of Mormon. They are the same gospel.

I have included a section of Jeffrey R. Holland’s recent talk which is titled “‘My Words … Never Cease’” from the Ensign, May 2008, pages 91–94. I believe it is relevant to our conversation. Footnote numbers copied over because I did a cut and paste from his talk.

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Sections taken from Jeffrey R. Holland, “‘My Words … Never Cease’,” Ensign, May 2008, 91–94

One of the arguments often used in any defense of a closed canon is the New Testament passage recorded in Revelation 22:18: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of … this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.” However, there is now overwhelming consensus among virtually all biblical scholars that this verse applies only to the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible. Those scholars of our day acknowledge a number of New Testament “books” that were almost certainly written after John’s revelation on the Isle of Patmos was received. Included in this category are at least the books of Jude, the three Epistles of John, and probably the entire Gospel of John itself.1 Perhaps there are even more than these.

But there is a simpler answer as to why that passage in the final book of the current New Testament cannot apply to the whole Bible. That is because the whole Bible as we know it—one collection of texts bound in a single volume—did not exist when that verse was written. For centuries after John produced his writing, the individual books of the New Testament were in circulation singly or perhaps in combinations with a few other texts but almost never as a complete collection. Of the entire corpus of 5,366 known Greek New Testament manuscripts, only 35 contain the whole New Testament as we now know it, and 34 of those were compiled after a.d. 1000.2

The fact of the matter is that virtually every prophet of the Old and New Testament has added scripture to that received by his predecessors. If the Old Testament words of Moses were sufficient, as some could have mistakenly thought them to be,3 then why, for example, the subsequent prophecies of Isaiah or of Jeremiah, who follows him? To say nothing of Ezekiel and Daniel, of Joel, Amos, and all the rest. If one revelation to one prophet in one moment of time is sufficient for all time, what justifies these many others? What justifies them was made clear by Jehovah Himself when He said to Moses, “My works are without end, and … my words … never cease.”4

One Protestant scholar has inquired tellingly into the erroneous doctrine of a closed canon. He writes: “On what biblical or historical grounds has the inspiration of God been limited to the written documents that the church now calls its Bible? … If the Spirit inspired only the written documents of the first century, does that mean that the same Spirit does not speak today in the church about matters that are of significant concern?”5 We humbly ask those same questions.

Continuing revelation does not demean or discredit existing revelation. The Old Testament does not lose its value in our eyes when we are introduced to the New Testament, and the New Testament is only enhanced when we read the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. In considering the additional scripture accepted by Latter-day Saints, we might ask: Were those early Christians who for decades had access only to the primitive Gospel of Mark (generally considered the first of the New Testament Gospels to be written)—were they offended to receive the more detailed accounts set forth later by Matthew and Luke, to say nothing of the unprecedented passages and revelatory emphasis offered later yet by John? Surely they must have rejoiced that ever more convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ kept coming. And so do we rejoice.

Please do not misunderstand. We love and revere the Bible, as Elder M. Russell Ballard taught so clearly from this pulpit just one year ago.6 The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our “standard works.” Indeed, it was a divinely ordained encounter with the fifth verse of the first chapter of the book of James that led Joseph Smith to his vision of the Father and the Son, which gave birth to the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in our time. But even then, Joseph knew the Bible alone could not be the answer to all the religious questions he and others like him had. As he said in his own words, the ministers of his community were contending—sometimes angrily—over their doctrines. “Priest [was] contending against priest, and convert [was contending] against convert … in a strife of words and a contest about opinions,” he said. About the only thing these contending religions had in common was, ironically, a belief in the Bible, but, as Joseph wrote, “the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question [regarding which church was true] by an appeal to the Bible.”7 Clearly the Bible, so frequently described at that time as “common ground,” was nothing of the kind—unfortunately it was a battleground.

Thus one of the great purposes of continuing revelation through living prophets is to declare to the world through additional witnesses that the Bible is true. “This is written,” an ancient prophet said, speaking of the Book of Mormon, “for the intent that ye may believe that,” speaking of the Bible.8 In one of the earliest revelations received by Joseph Smith, the Lord said, “Behold, I do not bring [the Book of Mormon forth] to destroy [the Bible] but to build it up.”9

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Regards,

–
Chris Hozian
Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon)

“Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.” - William Penn

Chris: I don’t have your brevity, so I’ll keep my points concise.

Regarding the Book of Mormon and Biblical closed canon - God does whatever He wants. Closed canon is an interesting theological discussion. However, there’s no way I’m putting my faith in what that Joe Smith character states. Given what Joe Smith said about Mormons not being part of Christianity, I’d guess he’s rolling over in his grave right now about what you are saying regarding his religion and his Book of Mormon being the same gospel as that of the Bible.

Arrogance of man that what we do can add to God: The Bible reveals the character of God (perfect love and perfect justice) who continually seeks out man, and the character of man who continually complains about, and rebels against, God. There’s the old covenant of rules and regulations, and then the new covenant of grace. The new covenant was established by Christ, and Christianity means Christ is sufficient, completely sufficient. In reality, Mormons minimize Christ to merely an enabler for the good things you have done to be credited to your character. Jesus Christ is not a baggage clerk at the gate of Heaven to make sure your good baggage outweighs your bad baggage; He was and is the Lord of Creation and He doesn’t need yours nor my good works. It’s arrogance that tells you and I that we can add anything to God. The character of God and character of man hasn’t changed.

Pride of man wanting our good works to be credited to our character: I respect the Mormon view that real change brought about by God should lead to changes in behavior. However, that tends to make God’s love and Jesus’s sacrifice as something to earn (which isn’t Biblical) rather than to accept freely (Biblical). That should lead to changes in behavior is Biblical, but change that to a requirement where good works count as credit, that isn’t Biblical. Christ removed from us the burden of even worrying about good works or bad works for gaining or losing favor with God. However, we certainly gain favor with respect to ourselves (i.e. we feel good about our good works) and we certainly gain favor with culture (i.e. other people make us feel good about our good works). But just because we feel good about it doesn’t make a difference to God. Good works for the purpose of credit is just religious nonsense that makes us feel good about ourselves. Happiness is not inherently bad, but prideful happiness is just pride.

It’s not about you and it’s not about me, it’s about Jesus and what He did. Rather than relying on religion and good works to feel good about yourself, I encourage you to grasp the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. It was at that point when I realized my place in the universe (fallen, broken, and nothing I do can change that and bring me into friendship with a perfect God) that I first found real happiness. That happiness was a soul-filling happiness to the root of my being knowing that even in my state, God meets me where I am and softened my heart to let Him be the hero, and not me.

OK that turned about to be longer than I thought. I’m proud of myself for writing so many words ; )

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It

An interesting PS to this: Several weeks ago I was having a conversation with someone I have known my entire life. We were discussing the roles of denominational church governance. In his opinion, he believes many denominations have failed in their responsibility of sound doctrine in “their” churches. However, he thought the Mormons have done an admirable job in appropriately encouraging sound doctrine by appropriately disciplining when necessary. He also stated he believes the Mormons do a great job of humanitarian efforts but have been given a bad rap because of that polygamy thing. In summary, he stated he thinks the Mormons are all right and have it figured out.

I asked of him “what about Mormon theology?” He knew very little of Mormon theology and had no idea that Mormons rely on good works for salvation. I do hope and pray for myself that I first stand on the firm ground of solid theology, and always point to Jesus and His story before living out my story. His story is the best.

Rich Sturmfels
Diesel Does It