Can Sojourn welcome and love a gay or lesbian person without judgment?

Love and accept - yes.

But there ultimately has to be a recognition that it’s a sinful lifestyle. Otherwise, we are remiss in representing the gospel and its’ supernatural power to free us from our destructive sins. The analogy is a parent with a child who perhaps has a serious drug addiction problem. The parent will always love and accept the child. But, if the parent’s love is real - if it’s genuine - the parent will also do everything in their power to try and set the child free from their destructive addiction. Otherwise, it’s not genuine love.

Sojourn welcomes and loves gays and lesbians just as Christ welcomed and loved sinners. But just as Jesus also called sinners to leave their life of sin, so also does Sojourn point the way to the only One who can truly set us free from our sins - Jesus Christ. Jesus says whomever He sets free is free indeed (John 8:31-32).

Check out this previous blog on homosexuality.

All of us at Sojourn are sinners. Only the power of Christ is strong enough to free us from our suicidal tendicies.

We welcome everyone.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

“Yes, but…” is unfortunately the answer I expected.

Unless we can earnestly answer, “YES!” without hesitation or veiled motive, we will not reach anyone that is suspicious of church. Even with a church in a brewery.

Charlene Cothran’s story is an interesting example to me, because the turning point was precipitated by a simple conversation. It wasn’t from a church visit. Cothran had a working relationship as a result of her publishing that allowed that conversation to take place.

I’ve been blessed to have friendships with many people, even those that churches reject: wiccans, gays, alcoholics, body-artists, deists and others. If I didn’t genuinely want to know each of those friends, the conversations that prompt such turning points to happen would never take place. These friendships were built over time, out of genuine brotherly love, not out of a desire to change them. A few have become close enough that we can openly discuss their rejection from church and the love and healing that Christ offers them.

I agree that all of us at Sojourn are sinners. But pride, greed, lust, nor any other sin has its own tag on this website. I’m not asking Sojourn to condone homosexuality. I’m pleading to drop this preoccupation with calling it out. It’s the digital-age equivalent of posting “Straights Only” on the front door.

Let’s show people love and compassion first. Until you do, you’ll continue to reject the ones you hope to change.

Amen, Eric. Well said. The ultimate question all of us need to be asking is what does Jesus want of me? The answer is …… everything.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Sojourns “preoccupation” is with Jesus and his life changing grace. Straight, Gay, Christian, Non-Christian, pierced, tattooed, fat, skinny, fowl mouth, college grad, alcoholic, pot head, white collar, blur collar, single, divorced, married, porn addicted, (and the list goes on)… These labels are not relevant. We are ALL jacked up and in need of life changing grace that is offered by Jesus Christ. Anyone who has spent any time at Sojourn… Listening to peoples stories know that we all come from different walks of life. We are not from the same “cookie cutter”. Many have been changed by Jesus and desperately want others to experience the same amazing life change.

Yes, Sojourn can and does offer GRACE and ACCEPTANCE and LOVE to anyone who walks in the doors of the brewery no matter the situation. I am a testament too that!!!

I believe it is our desire to begin conversations and build relationships with people in our community… People we are around everyday. I believe there are NO hidden agendas… NO strings attached… NO prejudice… The truth of the matter is I want all my friends to be Christians… To fall in love with Jesus Christ… To serve him every day of their life. I know some of them will not accept Jesus… But I still love them… I am still their friend… We still hang out and enjoy each other.. good food, good beer, good laugh. Do I back down from the gospel?… No. Do I accept their sin or life style?… No. I simply live a life of GRACE and TRUTH with them.

As Christ followers we know the power, beauty, and healing Jesus brings to a life that was jacked up by sin. So when we read a story about a “gay activist” following Jesus or a Metal guitarist quitting his band to serve Jesus or people being set free from strangle hold of sin we rejoice and want to encourage others in or out of the faith that there is hope.

So to me… the issue is not Gay or Straight… The issue is what do we do with our sin? What do we do with Jesus?

Eric M.
Rethinking life as a Son of God…

Eric M. (ericgmorgan.com)

Rod -

The experience that I’ve had suggests that you’re onto something.

Unpacking this: I think we all agree that (a) gays/lesbians need love and compassion from the church, and (b) there should, at some point, be some sort of communication that explains that the love and compassion - that are being freely doled out, with no strings attached - does not imply an approval of their lifestyle.

That’s nice and fine and theoretically tidy. Now let’s talk about experience.

Having been in the whole “classical musician” scene for a chunk of my life, all the theorizing about how to interact with gays/lesbians pretty quickly runs the reality of having to share a music stand with someone that’s gay.

In all the interactions with gays/lesbians that I’ve had - and there has been a quite a few of them, including some very close friendships - there has never, ever, been an issue about them not knowing that Christians do not approve their lifestyle. It’s been my experience that, for better or for worse, that has always been perfectly clear and communicated prior to anything I could have done. The problem is that (b) has been done, not only before (a), but completely without the compassion that should accompany both the (a) and (b) part.

If we should be doing (a) before (b) - which is something that we all seem to agree on anyway - how much more should we be doing this if Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have, in their infinite wisdom, already taken care of communicating the lack of approval part?

I know that (b) is important to communicate, and, like Rod, I’m not suggesting that Sojourn condone homosexuality. The experience I’ve had, however, is that it’s extremely unlikely that it’s inadvertently not going to be communicated. Not communicating that part of the message isn’t the problem, here.

- garrett

- garrett (golfsierra.org/blog)

It’s good to remind ourselves that the church has historically maintained a changed life is the best evidence of a real relationship with Jesus (given that God is the only One Who can see with absolute certainty into the human heart.) Someone who claims to know Christ and yet never repents is deceived (Matt 7:13-29)

Jesus accepted all sinners. But He also called (and empowered!) all of them to leave their life of sin.

The locus of Christ’s redemptive work is His dealing with our sin. He died for our sin. He frees up from the deadly bondage of our sin (John 8:36). And He empowers to walk away from it. The touchdown for one seeking to follow Christ is repentant faith. That should always be our goal in gently and gracefully pointing others to Christ. Always.

The more we know Jesus, the more uncomfortable we become in our sin. If we’re comfortable in our sin - and stay comfortable with it - we don’t know Jesus.

If we hold only to a social gospel that never calls people to repentant faith, we deny Christ. We love people. But if we truly love them with the love of Christ, we must eventually must call them to repentant faith. Otherwise we’re like the few survivors in the Titanic’s lifeboats waving at and wishing well those still standing on the deck of the doomed and sinking ship.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Garrett,

I gently suggest that the issue has nothing to do whether or not you approve of their lifestyle. The question is, “Does Jesus approve”? This is much, much different. Your friends may well understand you don’t approve. But do they understand that Jesus doesn’t approve? That’s worlds apart.

Ultimately, it does not matter whether you, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or Bob Pratico approves or disapproves of their lifestyle. Does Jesus approve?

If a gay or lesbian is truly seeking Jesus, do they understand (at some point) that Jesus does not approve of their lifestyle? If not - or if they refuse to accept it - they are coming to Him on their own terms. And we cannot come to Jesus on our own terms

“there has never, ever, been an issue about them not knowing that Christians do not approve their lifestyle.”

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

I’m sympathetic to what roderickm writes, especially:

Unless we can earnestly answer, “YES!” without hesitation or veiled motive, we will not reach anyone that is suspicious of church. Even with a church in a brewery.

Amen! And i do believe that our love for gays is to be without hesitation or veiled motive.

But…. there’s always a but. I don’t want to think of it as a but, because answering “Yes, but….” implies that our love is somehow compromised or conditional. That’s emphatically not the point.

Yes…. and. We love you. And because we love you, we’re not going to give you easy answers that are what you want to hear. We’re willing to do the dirty work of digging deep into questions of identity, to ask if your sexuality is really what defines you or if there’s an identity, a longing, that transcends that sexuality.

I know it’s not likely to “sell well.” The gay community is so predisposed to seeing the church as a den of hatred, with good reason, that many people make “What do you think about homosexuality?” the all-encompassing touchstone of judging us. If you’re on the “right” side of the issue, then maybe there’s hope for you. If not, then you’re just a closed-minded bigot. Our challenge to manage to not be closed-minded bigots, but not tell people what they want to hear when it diverges from our Biblically-based conviction.

We want to love people so thoroughly that the answer is, “Yes, and I care about you too much to give you easy answers.” Many people will reject that. Some won’t.

The problem I have is the phrase “without judgement” that roderickm uses.

“Can Sojourn welcome and love a gay or lesbian person without judgment?” [emphasis added]

What exactly does that mean? Does that mean that we will never judge anyone, anywhere, anytime for anything? We need to be very careful about our words here. For example, what if a gay person comes in and requests we perform a gay marriage (or commitment) ceremony. Will you perform a gay marriage ceremony if requested? If not, you have certainly judged.

It’s unrealistic and unbiblical to propose the church is never to execute judgement. In 1 Cor 5, Paul blasts the Corinthian congregation for failing to judge someone in their midst living in open sexual sin.

What if a pagan nudist wishes to worship with us nude? Will you accept him/her with your wife and kids around? If not, you are certainly judging that person. To say we must never execute judgement is both unwise and unbiblical.

If on the other hand, “without judgement” means that I welcome gays and lesbians to fellowship and worship - to befriend - to love and care for - to visit in the hospital when sick - to eat dinner with - to invite to my house - etc. …… then yes, I’m all for that.

Again, I must point out the real issue is not whether I or any other Christian approve of disapprove of someone’s lifestyle. The real question is, “Does Jesus approve?”. Jesus loved, accepted and saved the life of the woman caught in adultery. But look at His final words to her in John 8:11.

In summary:

- Can Sojourn welcome and love a gay or lesbian person? Yes!

- Can Sojourn welcome and love a gay or lesbian person without judgement? I don’t know what that means and so I must give a qualified answer.

Wrestling with difficult issues ….

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

This is fantastic dialog!!!

Me must begin and end with the GOSPEL!!!

1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the Jesus lived, died, was buried, rose again and this is how we are “saved”. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice that took care of my SIN debt. Without his shed blood there is no forgiveness/remission of sin.(Hebrews 9:22)

Bob’s example of John 8 with the woman caught in adultery is a perfect example of the GOSPEL in action. What is beautiful about this that Jesus, loved her, protected her, encouraged her, BUT let her know that her issue was a SIN and she needed to STOP sinning. “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

If we are NOT building relationships with people to the point of talking and discussing sin, what kind of relationship/friendship is it? As we live a life based on incarnation (Christ in us)… Sin will be exposed and come to light in ourselves and those around us. If my life is being conformed to Jesus… the gospel ,by design, illuminates the hidden areas of sin.

2Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Love, acceptance, trust, compassion, understanding are part of building relationships. As Christ followers, issues of sin, grace, and forgiveness are also part of building relationships. If I am NOT including sin, grace, and forgiveness in my relationships then all I have done is emasculated the true gospel of its power and all I am left with is a ’social gospel’.

Pr 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

A true friend… saved or not… is not afraid to deal with truth. It is because of the love I have for my friend that I point them to Jesus who exposes the sin. It is because of grace that I stick it out… I continue walking with them, growing our relationship… Always pointing them to Jesus.

Eric M.
Rethinking life as a Son of God…

Eric M. (ericgmorgan.com)

Yes, great dialogue. I am thankful to God that we are a group that wrestles with this issue. Here are some foundational statements followed with commentary:

Jesus loves His glory
Jesus loves us - applies to people of differing sexual paradigms and obedience
Jesus desires for us to experience the grace and forgiveness by the power of the cross
Jesus desires for us to be conformed to His image by the power of the resurrection

This past Monday night we talked about the difference between the cross and the resurrection. We talked about how the cross changes our position by taking care of sin. The cross brings justification (declared righteous though we are not) and removes the separation between God/Trinity and us. The cross makes us a new creature - we go from being a creation of God (no intimate relationship) to being a child of God (intimate relationship).

The resurrection represents the power to live. It is the ZOE (greek word for dynamic, spiritual life) placed within us. The Holy Spirit indwells us to empower us. We are freed from sin by the cross. We live life through the resurrection.

What does this mean for this discussion?
It means that Christ wants a person to experience the position of grace first. Then He wants a person to experience the transformation of grace.

Do we approach any person and declare they must change their lifestyle before Christ will rescue them? NO! This is moralism. This is works theology. Therefore, we must also love people BEFORE they change.

Does this mean that we cannot speak into a “friend’s” life who is self-destructive? No, it doesn’t. Even if your friend is a non-Christian, we should love them enough to tell them that what we see is harmful.

So what is the key here? Relational connection with a love for the gospel. Don’t miss the “relational connection” part. Rod’s initial comments spoke of his relational connection to others who are not Christ-followers. Several others who have responded have lives full of these connections as well. THAT is what it means to be a missional church. And THAT is what it means for a “church” to accept/love someone with a homosexual lifestyle, sinful heterosexual lifestyle.

I was once met weekly with a man who was not a Christian. It was a classic case of prediscipleship. We met and talked about his story and Christ’s story. He did not buy into the deity of Christ at that point. After a few weeks he said something along the lines of, “I’m going to tell you something, but I’m afraid that you will reject me.” I told him I loved him and my love would not change. He told me that he was “gay.” I told him that I loved him and my love would not change. We discussed what God has to say (in the bible) about homosexual activity. But I told him I was more interested in a change of his being than a change in his behavior. It is important not to get the cart before the horse. This man surrendered to Christ (not morality) within three months. He no longer lives a homosexual lifestyle. He too, is an imperfect follower of Christ, rescued by Christ.

For the record, there has been more said and written about heterosexual sin than about homosexual sin. I have not specifically mentioned homosexuality in preaching (though I will as appropriate) but I have mentioned heterosexual sins as well as pride/”false humility” often.

Finally, will someone with homosexual lifestyle be offended if they come to a worship gathering? Yes, but hopefully it will be the offense that comes from Christ and His story. Jesus is an “equal opportunity offender.” We all come face to face with our sinfulness when we are in the presence of Him and His story. It is only after our “righteousness” is exposed as being as clean as a used tampon (this is a direct reference to Isaiah 64:6). That offends me. That offends everyone. May we embrace this offense as a gift of revelation.

This leaves NO place for SELF-righteousness. This places us all face first in the dust before a holy God. May we stay there. May we encourage others to be there.

Reach out to all fellow sinners. Love them with your life. Be assured that Christ and the gospel IS the completion of their narrative. Share that with them at the appropriate, Spirit-led moment. Because of the cross, stand on even ground with them. Even better, humble yourself and bow before Christ on that even ground.

For Christ and His transformation of us,

–
David Thew
Sojourn Founding Pastor

David Thew
Sojourn Pastor
Thewblog
twitter.com/davidthew

Sometimes its so hard to hear Christians criticize homosexuality because its something that on the whole I think many of them know so little about. Its easy to criticize someone about something you have NO problem with.

I have several friends that battle depression and I find myself inwardly being so unsympathetic because I have never dealt with that before. I am so critical of it because depression is just so not me. However, if people want to talk about gossip or laziness I’m going to be the first on the chopping block.

We used to go to a small country church and on the whole the people were really sweet but they could definitely get on their high horses about “the homasectuals.” I just wanted to shake them and say “Do you even know anyone who battles with this?!”

The article that Bob posted a few days ago was so incredible. Such a great testimony and so authentic by that lady. I can’t imagine taking the kind of personal risks she has taken for God. My life is so comfortable. Its ridiculous.

Not really a reply (although i owe you one), but i heard a promo for All Things Considered today (Thursday) about a church’s struggles with being welcoming toward convicted sex offenders. I don’t mean to imply that they’re the same issue, but there might be some similarities in terms of what it means to be a welcoming church. Anyway, sounds like an interesting piece.

Philip’s tunnel to nowhere: blog.godblessthefreaks.org