Bob,
Great thoughts. I couldn’t agree more. I really like the comment on elders without unbelieving friends…Bam! That’s a big one.

Mr. P,

So…..I’m wondering what I should do.
Here I am, at age 52, in the same church for 20+ years; I have gray hair (so I must be “dying” or dead, according to you).

My church has a youth group with a young pastor, small groups, Bible studies, prayer groups, singles group, men’s ministry, marriage ministry… It preaches the word, calls people to repentance for sins and into an honest relationship with God, supports an orphanage, provides mission and summer camp opportunities…

I’ll not go into much detail, but your 1,2,3,4,5, & 6 are evident.

Do I drop out? Do I dye my hair & “punk out”?
Should our church close its doors? Or should we become whatever design you want to “cookie cut” all churches to be.

I await your prophetical wisdom.

PS sorry for being sarcastic, but I’m pretty sure you must tolerate me too, brother. even if my hair is gray.

We welcome everyone.

If you’re content and fulfilled where you’re at, then stay there. I think that any church that “preaches the word, calls people to repentance for sins and into an honest relationship with God, supports an orphanage, provides mission and summer camp opportunities” is fullfilling the Great Commission. Great!

BTW - my previous church is a traditional SBC and we had been with them for 10 years. They sent us out with full blessings, sowing seed in a different vineyard, to support this new church plant. The pastor (a good friend) is thrilled about Sojourn; he recognizes each church is meeting needs in different vineyards.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Thanks for the replies guys.

I guess I vented on you, Mr. P., because your article paints in such a broad swath. It said to me that my church is 60% or more “irrelevant” without you knowing us. Did you mean to be that confrontational? I’m serious when I say that we’re trying hard to serve God here, to the best of our abilities.
——————
I don’t know why I felt I could respond to your article. I just felt that some good discussion would happen here.
——————
I’ve been reading lots on the internet about the emergent church. There’s a lot of truth out there about the old church and its perception. Some of the ideas make sense, but there’s a lot of childish whining. Remember when you were a kid? “Dad, I want this.. I want that…I don’t want to do that… I want to do it MY way…It’s just not fair…” We (most of us anyway) survived and now realize “It’s not all about ME, & it never was.”

I strongly believe that the Church must not bow to every pressure from the vast audience of critics - from within or without.

I don’t think most of the problems are new. Can’t you just imagine some people in the early church time?:
“Why don’t they meet in a building instead of homes?”
“Isn’t it a little crowded in here?”
“I won’t be back until they have padded benches, like the new synagogue on the corner!”
“Did you see what Peter was wearing? He should see Marcus the tailor. Honestly! I think there’s still fish blood on that cloak of his!” “Certainly not the most ambitious bunch when it comes to business.”
“It’s ALL about the money!”
“Don’t worry about my beliefs. I’m just fine..”

——————

Mroli -
Thanks for the invite. But being in MN, its highly unlikely I’ll be taking you up on the visit offer. By and by, see you in the sky!

I do have a funny skateboard/ministry story for you though.

A few years ago, I asked a youth pastor what he was busy with in his ministry. One of the things he said was, “Sunday night, some of the boys and I are getting together with Tony Hawk.” (meaning they were going to play video games)
I wasn’t listening very closely (or at the time was out of the sktbd loop) and asked, “I’ve never heard of him. Is he a Christian preacher?”. You should have seen the really blank look on his face!

Blessings and God’s Peace to both of you,
JB

PS - Have a blessed Lord’s Day tomorrow!

Hey….JB….that’s a great post!!!! You made me laugh big time! I’m pretty sure your church is great….as long as it’s old guys have as much punk attitude as you. By the way….I’m a 61 year old skateboarder with attitude too…..and Mr. P is pretty gray too.

Along the same lines…I’m finding that it is getting harder and harder for an older person to have ministry with teens. I have had the same ministry for most of my adult life. Now I am finding that younger pastors and church leaders believe older people have no legitimate interest in ministering with teenagers.

I am an alumnus of two reputable seminaries, and have a list of powerful references and three years experience as a childrens home houseparent, but recently…when a young pastor was checking out my references; he said to my friend….”why would a person his age want to spend time with teenagers?” Pretty pathetic…huh?…

Maybe I’ll see you sometime at our church….as my visitor…but if you could use some help with the skateboarders at your church, contact me. I’d love to help.

Here’s a pic of me with some of my friends (I’m on the left):

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/ocooper/Dirtysouthcrew.jpg

“I believe in you, Peter Pan.”

“I believe in you, Peter Pan.”

… and I’m 54 this month. :-) Tim Keller is a great example of how to connect with the culture at a “senior” age.

To see a picture of my wife and I, go here. We’re the couple in the last picture up on the right, in the red and black costumes. Not bad for a couple in their early 50s!

God bless you and your church JB. If you’re ever down this way, come worship with us in the brewery.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)

Thanks for your kind words and your insights and friendship, JB! I’ll look forward to your fellowship in heaven, but it would be great to be your internet friend now.

Regardless…..I’ll see you in heaven….maybe I’ll be there soon if I do another face plant in the skatepark bowl like I did a couple of weeks ago….LOL!!!

“I believe in you, Peter Pan.”

“I believe in you, Peter Pan.”

Bob,
Hi, I’m back.

While I certainly enjoyed the friendly, personal information, I am wanting to hear your responses to my questions:
1)Did you, through your article, intend to be confrontational? To what extent and purpose?
2)Is the “Emergent Church” actually something more than a generational & societal excuse to complain about “the establishment”?

JB

PS. “If you’re content”… You know that’s a bombshell… I was pretty content when I was a drunken fool…. Now that Jesus is my Lord, I’m striving to please Him. :)

JB,

Here are my answers:

1)Did you, through your article, intend to be confrontational? To what extent and purpose?

Yes. Sometimes tough questions need to be asked. Michael Patton brings this point out in his excellent blog on the dangers of sola scriptura.

“It is found in lay people who look at you with shock when you ask the tough questions that, from their perspective, should have assumed answers. It comes from the objection made in Sunday School or small group settings that sucks the air out of the room. It comes from the pastoral “concern” from those in authority when you question a sacred cow of the church. The questions become reserved to the category of the things about which we are not allowed to speak.

Unfortunately, this will always be the case if people are not intentional about revisiting the doctrine of sola Scriptura.”

Truth sometimes is confrontational. Luther asked some very tough questions in his day that were, by nature, confrontational. Sometimes tough questions need to be asked. Sometimes confrontation is good.

I asked some tough questions in this blog that need to be asked. For example, if a Christian (especially a leader!) has no unbelieving friends in his personal life, just how faithful is he being to the model set forth by Jesus who was the friend of sinners? And just how is he actually sharing the gospel if he has no personal interaction on a regular basis with unbelievers?

2)Is the “Emergent Church” actually something more than a generational & societal excuse to complain about “the establishment”?

Multi-part answer ….

First) I am no expert on the “emergent” church. There is not even universal agreement yet on what exactly the “emergent” church is. We are part of the Acts 29 network which distingishes the “emerging” church from the “emergent” church. I prefer to use the term “missional”.

Second) Let me answer with a question - Was the Reformation, sparked by Luther, a generational & societal excuse to complain about the establishment? From the perspective of the Catholic Magisterium, Luther was a rabble-rouser needlessly complaining about the establishment. So I guess it depends on who you ask. Those whose sacred cows are being targeted will view it as youthful rebellion against the establishment. Those who are questioning will view it as the ongoing and necessary Reformation principle of semper reformanda - always reforming.

This is the Reformation principle that Christian theology is always undergoing change, enhancement, and development. The Reformers understood that if theology was, at any point, thought to be solidified and one person’s, group’s, tradition’s, or denomination’s perspective was thought of to be “above all reproach” and, therefore, unable to be developed, the task of doing theology would be severely grieved. Our theology must be reforming itself continually.

This does not mean that theology changes drastically as it is reforming, but that it is being enhanced and better understood as we reform it in the context of the entire body of Christ, both living and dead. For example, Christian theology will not ever reform the doctrine of the resurrection, if that change involves a denial of its historicity, but it may change/reform in its understanding of its significance as related to doctrines that are directly affected by it (e.g.,, the importance of the physical body, the understanding of what resurrected bodies will be like, the importance of Christ’s body as victor over the powers of sin, etc.).

Personally, it’s refreshing to be around Christians who are not afraid to ask and wrestle with the tough questions. Thanks for asking and giving me a chance to respond.

Bob
Fides Quaerens Intellectum

Bob Pratico
Fides Quaerens Intellectum
(my Sojourn blog)